One Year Athe-versary
January 5, 2010 at 11:17 am | Posted in ProfessingAtheists | 2 CommentsTags: anniversary blog, atheism, atheism debate, engineering, Galatians 6, Genesis 27, Jacob and Esau, Jesus Christ, John 1, John 3:16, Law of God, law of gravity, Romans 3, scientific method, Vikings
This post is a couple of days late, but, in celebration of the one year anniversary of this blog (which actually started on January 3, 2009), I have decided to re-post the post which has been by far my most-read post. It is one in a series of posts which make up an ongoing dialogue between a Christian and a professing atheist.
Professing Atheists Worship Creation Rather Than the Creator
Professing Atheist: I would challenge any Christian to step out side of the Christian “box” and just for a moment consider the vast scientific evidence regarding the origins of the universe and of life.
Christian: Since you have brought up scientific evidence, this may be helpful: Little children, in elementary school, are commonly taught the “scientific method.” I know it’s more complicated than this, but, basically it boils down to teaching them to take matter and examine its properties, and learn about it, using their natural senses. Touch it. Look at it. Smell it. Taste it. I’m not opposed to children being taught that way, but think of the spiritual implications. In Genesis Chap. 27, Isaac employed a form of the scientific method with Jacob. Jacob and Rebekah plotted to deceive Isaac into thinking that Jacob was Esau. Isaac touched him. He listened to him. He couldn’t see him but, no doubt, he smelled him. And he came to the wrong conclusion! It would have been better for Isaac just to believe God’s promise by faith, that Jacob, although the younger, and not Esau, was to receive the blessing.
Professing Atheist: Have you ever been in an aircraft? If so, the fact that you landed again is because a large number of scientists kept working and improving things until they got their sums right. Evidence matters. Planes fly, diseases are cured, water comes out when you turn the tap on, and you and I can argue in cyberspace like this. You benefit from real, evidence-based science as much as I do. It’s hypocritical of you to dismiss it.
Would you say that (for example) Iranians and pagan Vikings would be “without excuse” if they “failed to acknowledge” God?
Christian: Hypocrisy is being grateful for the benefits of evidence-based science while ignoring God, who created all the scientific laws that the aviators, doctors, and engineers have discovered (John 1:3). Every time your heart beats, it is not thanks to cardiology or cardiologists. It is thanks to God, Who has caused it to beat, by His sovereign power, your whole life. When you expel the next breath of air from your nostrils, you will have hope of another breath, not because a scientist discovered evidence of the air you breath, but because God provides it (Isaiah 2:22).
You can check this out by climbing up on a roof. Shake your fist, and cry out, “I don’t believe you exist, Gravity! You can’t be real! If you were real, you would not have held all those Norsemen and Iranians down! You would have let them float away in true freedom! Therefore, I defy, O Gravity, that you exist!” Then, leap off the roof. (By the way, I do not recommend that you really try this.) But if you did, you would see that, if you break God’s law of gravity, then God’s law of gravity will break you – literally. It’s the same way with God’s Biblical laws. You can break them if you want. But, if you do, they will break you (Galatians 6:7)
Professing Atheist: Well, I have other, more worthwhile calls on my time, but the Devil can quote scripture, as they say, so here I go. You will be as familiar with John 3:16 as I am, or as any of those people who hold up placards at wrestling matches. You would, I feel sure, assert that God’s purpose to all humanity, in sending his Son to die for us, is loving and merciful. Tell me, what do you believe that loving and merciful God, and gentle Jesus, meek and mild, have in store for these billions of people, all ignorant, in my humble opinion, through no fault of their own?
Christian: When considering the decision to accept, or willfully reject, the truth of the existence of God, it is irrelevant what anyone “thinks” would produce results, or what anyone’s humble “opinion” is – apart from Scripture.
I hope that the more worthwhile calls on your time do not include actually going to the wrestling matches where the John 3:16 placards are held. You are coming to that verse in isolation, not taking into account the entirety of Scripture. These Iranians and Vikings you mention – just like me, and just like you, and just like everyone else – are wicked sinners, who deserve God’s judgment (Romans 3:10; 3:23). Because He is loving and merciful, He sent His Son to die. Because He is just, righteous, true, and holy, He must judge those Who reject His Son.
(The other posts in the series – which received some attention, but were not nearly as popular as the one posted above – can be viewed here:)
Atheists Aren’t Real
Professing Atheists Are in Denial
Professing Atheists Are Disturbed by the Truth
Professing Atheists Fear the Bible
Professing Atheists Try To Allay Their Fears
Professing Atheists Understand More of the Bible Than They Want To Admit
Professing Atheists Are Incapable of Being “Good”
Professing Atheists Conveniently Pick and Choose Their Own “Morality”
Professing Atheists Do Have Faith
Professing Atheists Are Affected by Their Past
Professing Atheists Are Angry at God
Professing Atheists Pretend They Would Like God If He Could Be Controlled
Professing Atheists Despise the Idea of Answering To Their Creator
Professing Atheists Are Blind to Their Own Lack of Objectivity
Professing Atheists Don’t Understand Authority
Professing Atheists Don’t Really Want Fairness
Acting Like We’ve Been There
Acting Like We’ve Been There
May 8, 2009 at 1:01 pm | Posted in ProfessingAtheists | 5 CommentsTags: atheism, atheism debate, Ephesians 3, Paul Washer, professing atheists, Revelation 1, Romans 1, Romans 8, Titus 3, witnessing for Christ
Christians have a great deal to be excited and joyous about. Our Father is the Creator and Owner of this world. Our eternal inheritance includes riches beyond comprehension (Ephesians 3:8). Our Big Brother is the strongest, most loyal, and faithful Friend in Whom we could ever hope (Romans 8:29; Revelation 1:5).
However, Christians must be careful about giving in to frustration, since the world we are passing through does not share our views. Knowing our privileged standing before the Almighty (even though we do not deserve it), there may be a tendency to be combative with those who oppose us on behalf of the ungodly system of this world.
The Bible is clear about the Christian’s behavioral duties toward those who are lost:
To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
Titus 3:2
What will help me control my temper when confronted with the evil of worldly unbelievers? The memory that I was once like them:
For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Titus 3:3
Meekness is not weakness. Meekness is strength which is brought under control.
Lately, I’ve been posting an ongoing dialogue between a Christian and a Professing Atheist. For some reason, the number of views I get on this site skyrockets when I mention professing atheists. I always use the term “professing atheist,” because there’s no such thing as a “real atheist.” An “atheist” would be someone who truly believes that there is no God. Everyone knows deep down that God is real. Professing atheists just choose to try to hide from, run from, fight against, hold down, willfully ignore, or rebel against, this truth.
I meet quite a few professing atheists in real life, but most of the unsaved people I meet claim to believe in God – they just don’t live like it. It’s a different story in internet-land. Most professing atheists on the internet claim all kinds of morality and kindness and good deeds and love for fellow man, but refuse to give glory to God.
Maybe I get so many “views” because I use the tag “atheism debate.” I like to get the views and comments, but the reality is, when I encounter a professing atheist, I’m not debating. I’m proclaiming Truth. They can debate all they want. (I have a number of theories about why so many professing atheists enjoy “debating,” but I’ll save that for another time.)
Just remember, the Holy Spirit caused the Apostle Paul to say:
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ…
Romans 1:16
The inference is that there is a tendency to be ashamed that needs to be overcome. Thankfully, the Bible goes on to tell us the reason for not being ashamed:
…for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth…
Romans 1:16
Telling the truth can seem so cruel, unloving, and fanatical, but it is really the most loving thing you can do for someone who is perishing.
I once heard a very gifted preacher tell a story about sitting on a plane next to a professing atheist. The professing atheist had a number of pretentious excuses for his “unbelief,” and the preacher, who was skilled in Christian apologetics, demolished every excuse, and clearly won the debate. The professing atheist got off the plane frustrated and angry. Afterward, the preacher’s ministry partner, who had been observing the whole affair, said to the preacher privately, “Well, you won the debate… but you didn’t win the man.”
The Christian’s responsibility is to proclaim the Truth in love, not to win a debate.
Professing Atheists Despise the Idea of Answering to Their Creator
May 7, 2009 at 11:00 am | Posted in ProfessingAtheists | 10 CommentsTags: 1 John 1, Acts 7, atheism, atheism debate, George Orwell, God's holiness, God's justice, Jesus of Nazareth, Mark 8, Matthew 11, Matthew 6, Proverbs 15, Psalm 115, Revelation 16, russell's teapot, theodicy
Professing Atheist: Super – the furher gets to make his own rules – why am I not surprised? There goes objective morality.
God is perfect and yet I can be better than him (look, I’m saving kids from burning to death… and God appears to be doing, er nothing?)
Christian: If the fuhrer had God’s power, that WOULD be horrifying, but you are having difficulty because you are too limited in your thinking. There is no danger of God being unjust like the fuhrer. I John 1:5: “This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”
Professing atheists have such a hard time facing reality. When God, in His absolute sovereignty, uses a human instrument or divine providence to save a child from burning to death, they complain because they believe He didn’t save them all. Once again, proving the point: Professed atheism = Willful hatred of God because He can’t be fully explained by the finite mind.
Professing Atheist: Design argument. God did it isn’t an answer, dude – it merely begs the question. It is a bit like saying “the tea pot did it.” How? “It is a magic tea pot.”
Christian: The professing atheist hates God partly because he/she wants to be a little god himself/herself. He/she says, “I’m a little teapot, short (short-sighted – Mark 8:36), and stout (stiffnecked – Acts 7:51), here is my handle (the idol of false intellect which has hands but handles not – Psalm 115:4-7), here is my spout (spouting off uselessly in unbelief – Matthew 6:7), tip me over, and pour me out (his mouth pouring out foolishness – Proverbs 15:2 – and, ultimately, unless he/she receives the gift of God’s salvation by faith, being poured upon – Revelation 16:1).
Professing Atheist: In today’s radio broadcast Big Brother assured the nation that he was indeed a paragon of goodness. He assured his audience that there was no evidence to the contrary, and that if they found any their senses were deceiving them.
Remember – have faith in the party, faith in the cause, faith in the people, and above all faith in Big Brother.
Christian: One day, Jesus of Nazareth stood up in a busy corner of the marketplaces of Capernaum. People were rushing to and fro, not in an imaginary totalitarian society, but in a real time and place where they could be put to death for speaking out against Rome.
This Jesus began to speak openly, and He said a remarkable thing. “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28) Well over one thousand nine hundred eighty-four years later, those words still ring true.
Professing atheists would like to portray themselves as people who are being oppressed by Christians, but, in reality, they live in such freedom from persecution, that they have to actually seek out Christians who will “force” the truth of Scripture upon them.
Only the Lord knows what was truly on George Orwell’s heart when he died, but history records that his two main concerns were that he be buried near a church and that his body not be cremated. One wonders if he would have had such misplaced anxiety if he had accepted the invitation which followed Jesus’s pronouncement: “Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-29
Professing Atheists Pretend They Would Like God If He Could Be Controlled
April 28, 2009 at 1:24 pm | Posted in ProfessingAtheists | 7 CommentsTags: 1 Corinthians 2, 1 John 5, 1 Samuel 2, atheism, atheism debate, God's holiness, God's promises, Holy Spirit, Isaiah 64, John 16, Romans 11, spiritually blind
Professing Atheist: What about rape, murder, torture, pain, suffering? You are holding God to lower standards than everyone else, even though he is supposed to be good. That is bizarre. Good behavior should need no rationalization – it should be self evident.
Christian: It is always a mistake to believe that anyone holds God to any standard. He never violates the Truth of His own Word. People assume horrible atrocities go unpunished because they do not see what God sees. People will claim they want a God they can figure out (Romans 11:33-36), but that would be beyond bizarre – it would be horrific.
God cannot be held to the standards of sinful men, because He is perfect, and men are sinful. However, He is also holy – and this goes beyond our finite understanding of perfection. (I Samuel 2:2). He cannot be compared with us, because He is not “like us, only better.” He is not “like us, only wiser.” He is not “like us, only more powerful.” He is not like us at all.
We cannot truthfully determine the extent of God’s justice or the extent of His mercy. What we consider our righteousness is like filth to Him (Isaiah 64:6). Professing atheists pretend that they want a logical little god they can subject to their own tests and standards. But that is because they are spiritually, albeit willfully, blind (I Corinthians 2:14). That way they can please their pride, and tell themselves that they are not like the murderers and rapists – they are “only” liars or lustful or idolaters or blasphemers or covetous. God does not always deliver tidy explanations, but He does give dependable promises.
Professing Atheist: Spiritually blind? How do you do that? Do you have some special sense I don’t?
Christian: Christians don’t have a special sense that you don’t have. They have a special Person: the Holy Spirit. He acts like an antenna which allows them to discern the Truth, and filter out the false. “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” John 16:13
Professing Atheist: It is important to realize that I’m not a deconvert – I never had a religion. So I can’t lie about God’s nonexistence – I know he doesn’t exist! Covetors are people who want something others have. You have nothing that I would ever want – your ideas are poison.
Christian: You have a basic understanding of the meaning of “covetous,” but you are confusing “covet” and “convert.” No argument, debate, or scientific test is going to convert you. That should let you relax. The Holy Spirit, however, CAN reprove you – that may be why you can NOT relax.
Professing Atheist: How do you know? If God doesn’t give tidy explanations why do you believe He will give dependable promises? If he has a separate standard, what is to stop Him from throwing Christians in Hell?
Christian: If God doesn’t give tidy explanations, how do I know He won’t throw true Christians in hell? “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” I John 5:13
Douglas Wilson’s Turn to “S.W.I.M.”
April 22, 2009 at 8:55 am | Posted in ProfessingAtheists, Quotes | 1 CommentTags: absurdity of rejecting Christ, atheism, atheism debate, Biblical swimming, Douglas Wilson, Douglas Wilson quotes, professing atheists, swimming quotes
You say that you cannot believe that Christ’s death on the Cross was salvation for the world because the idea is absurd. I have shown in various ways that absurdity has not been a disqualifier for any number of your current beliefs. You praise reason to the heights, yet will not give reasons for your strident and inflexible moral judgments, or why you have arbitrarily dubbed certain chemical processes “rational argument.” That’s absurd right now, and yet there you are, holding it. So for you to refuse to accept Christ because it is absurd is like a man at one end of the pool refusing to move to the other end because he might get wet. Given your premises, you will have to come up with a different reason for rejecting Christ as you do.
But for you to make this move would reveal the two fundamental tenets of true atheism. One: There is no God. Two: I hate Him.
Douglas Wilson
Professing Atheists Are Angry at God
April 16, 2009 at 8:53 am | Posted in ProfessingAtheists | 32 CommentsTags: 9/11, aerodynamics, atheism, atheism debate, Galatians 6, Genesis 3, gravity, James 2, Matthew 12, natural laws, Romans 14, theodicy
Christian: You can check this out by climbing up on a roof. Shake your fist, and cry out, “I don’t believe you exist, Gravity! You can’t be real! If you were real, you would not hold people down! You would have let them float away in true freedom! Therefore, I defy, O Gravity, that you exist!” Then, leap off the roof. By the way, I recommend that you do not really try this. But if you did, you would see that, if you break God’s law of gravity, then God’s law of gravity will break you – literally.
It’s the same way with God’s Biblical laws. You can break them if you want. But, if you do, they will break you (Galatians 6:7).
Professing Atheist: Hah! Fool. We defy gravity all the time! We call them planes, and boy are they fun.
Christian: People do not defy gravity “all the time.” They only do it when they consciously take advantage of a machine or device which has been constructed in accordance with other natural laws created by God, and discovered by men, in order to work.
Professing Atheist: Every time a person kneals over and dies it is but for the grace of God. Every murder, every rape, every torture, trial, pain and suffering is but due to Him.
Christian: Whether people keel over, kneel over, or die in their sleep, death is not the end (Matthew 12:36; Romans 14:12). After physical death, we will all appear before God one of two ways: with our sin, or with His Son.
The “garden variety” (Genesis 3:5) professing atheist will always blame God for atrocities, pain, crimes, and suffering. Not because he or she is too dense to understand the Truth, but because the Truth points out that we ALL (not just the murderers and rapists) are guilty before God (James 2:10). Thus has been proven the original point of this discussion. People choose to reject Him, not because they don’t really believe He exists, but because they’re angry (like spoiled little children) at His righteousness.
Blaming God for the suffering caused by the sins of men is like blaming the Wright Brothers for 9/11. Talk about a logical fallacy!
Professing Atheists Worship Creation Rather than the Creator
April 2, 2009 at 8:14 am | Posted in ProfessingAtheists | 25 CommentsTags: aerodynamics, atheism, atheism debate, cardiologists, cardiology, Galatians 6, Genesis 27, gravity, hypocrisy, Isaiah 2, Jacob, John 1, John 3, John 3:16, physical laws, pro wrestling, professing atheists, Romans 3, scientific method, Vikings
Professing Atheist: I would challenge any Christian to step out side of the Christian “box” and just for a moment consider the vast scientific evidence regarding the origins of the universe and of life.
Christian: Since you have brought up scientific evidence, this may be helpful: Little children, in elementary school, are commonly taught the “scientific method.” I know it’s more complicated than this, but, basically it boils down to teaching them to take matter and examine its properties, and learn about it, using their natural senses. Touch it. Look at it. Smell it. Taste it. I’m not opposed to children being taught that way, but think of the spiritual implications. In Genesis Chap. 27, Isaac employed a form of the scientific method with Jacob. Jacob and Rebekah plotted to deceive Isaac into thinking that Jacob was Esau. Isaac touched him. He listened to him. He couldn’t see him but, no doubt, he smelled him. And he came to the wrong conclusion! It would have been better for Isaac just to believe God’s promise by faith, that Jacob, although the younger, and not Esau, was to receive the blessing.
Professing Atheist: Have you ever been in an aircraft? If so, the fact that you landed again is because a large number of scientists kept working and improving things until they got their sums right. Evidence matters. Planes fly, diseases are cured, water comes out when you turn the tap on, and you and I can argue in cyberspace like this. You benefit from real, evidence-based science as much as I do. It’s hypocritical of you to dismiss it.
Would you say that (for example) Iranians and pagan Vikings would be “without excuse” if they “failed to acknowledge” God?
Christian: Hypocrisy is being grateful for the benefits of evidence-based science while ignoring God, who created all the scientific laws that the aviators, doctors, and engineers have discovered (John 1:3). Every time your heart beats, it is not thanks to cardiology or cardiologists. It is thanks to God, Who has caused it to beat, by His sovereign power, your whole life. When you expel the next breath of air from your nostrils, you will have hope of another breath, not because a scientist discovered evidence of the air you breath, but because God provides it (Isaiah 2:22).
You can check this out by climbing up on a roof. Shake your fist, and cry out, “I don’t believe you exist, Gravity! You can’t be real! If you were real, you would not have held all those Norsemen and Iranians down! You would have let them float away in true freedom! Therefore, I defy, O Gravity, that you exist!” Then, leap off the roof. (By the way, I do not recommend that you really try this.) But if you did, you would see that, if you break God’s law of gravity, then God’s law of gravity will break you – literally. It’s the same way with God’s Biblical laws. You can break them if you want. But, if you do, they will break you (Galatians 6:7).
Professing Atheist: Well, I have other, more worthwhile calls on my time, but the Devil can quote scripture, as they say, so here I go. You will be as familiar with John 3:16 as I am, or as any of those people who hold up placards at wrestling matches. You would, I feel sure, assert that God’s purpose to all humanity, in sending his Son to die for us, is loving and merciful. Tell me, what do you believe that loving and merciful God, and gentle Jesus, meek and mild, have in store for these billions of people, all ignorant, in my humble opinion, through no fault of their own?
Christian: When considering the decision to accept, or willfully reject, the truth of the existence of God, it is irrelevant what anyone “thinks” would produce results, or what anyone’s humble “opinion” is – apart from Scripture.
I hope that the more worthwhile calls on your time do not include actually going to the wrestling matches where the John 3:16 placards are held. You are coming to that verse in isolation, not taking into account the entirety of Scripture. These Iranians and Vikings you mention – just like me, and just like you, and just like everyone else – are wicked sinners, who deserve God’s judgment (Romans 3:10; 3:23). Because He is loving and merciful, He sent His Son to die. Because He is just, righteous, true, and holy, He must judge those Who reject His Son.
Professing Atheists Are Affected by Their Past
March 20, 2009 at 8:59 am | Posted in ProfessingAtheists | 7 CommentsTags: affected by the past, atheism debate, born again, Jeremiah 2, professing atheists. atheism, unshakeable faith
Professing Atheist: I can understand where you are coming from. I was a born again Christian for 30 years. Born and raised to believe that the “Word of God” is perfect and infallible. My grandfather was a preacher; my father was a deacon at my church and I was ALWAYS VERY involved in my church. I will tell you that 10 short years ago, my faith was 100% unshakable.
Christian: While I appreciate your insight, we do not appear to have very similar backgrounds. I was not raised to believe that the Word of God was perfect and infallible, although I have known it to be for some time now. Also, I have no reason to think you are being intentionally deceitful, but, according to your own words and logic, your faith was not 100% unshakable. This is evidenced by the fact that, by your own admission, you no longer have this faith. Therefore, it was in fact shaken, and, apparently, shaken loose. I regret that, and I encourage you to turn back to it.
Professing Atheist: I am very ashamed of the way that I once behaved. I have apologized to all my Jewish, Mormon, JW, and atheist friends for trying to convince them that they were doomed to an eternity in hell if they did not conform to my beliefs.
Christian: Part of the problem may have been that you tried to convince people to conform to “your” beliefs. I do not advocate conforming to the beliefs of any person. My prayer is that everyone would conform their beliefs to the Word of God, which is immutable Truth.
Professing Atheists: You do NOT have it all figured out.
Christian: Neither I, nor anyone else, has “it all figured out.” However, I know that God is perfect, and He does have everything worked out. When people tell me they used to trust God, but they walked away from Him because of a problem with His people, I like to point out Jeremiah 2:5: “Thus saith the LORD, What iniquity have your fathers found in me, that they are gone far from me, and have walked after vanity, and are become vain?” You may be very ashamed of past behavior on the part of men who claimed to love God, but God Himself never did anything to cause you to turn away from Him.
Professing Atheists Do Have Faith
March 11, 2009 at 2:15 pm | Posted in ProfessingAtheists | 1 CommentTags: 1 John 3, atheism, atheism debate, faith, John 16, professing atheists, Romans 1, Romans 10, truth
Christian: Professing atheists are people who know the truth, but choose to deny the truth because they are walking after their own lusts.
Professing Atheist: I find it quite strange that you claim to know what’s going on in other people’s minds.
Christian: I do not claim to know what’s going on in other people’s minds in the sense of having a private revelation. Romans Chapter 1 and I John 3:20 make it abundantly clear, however, that God knows what is going on in everyone’s mind, including professing atheists. They have access to the truth, yet hold that truth in unrighteousness.
Professing Atheist: Do you actually think that everyone in the whole world really believes that Christianity is correct, and willfully ignores that truth? Is non-belief so alien a concept to you that you refuse to consider that many people out there honestly and legitimately don’t believe the same things that you do?
Christian: Non-belief is not an alien concept. I don’t believe a great many things. Likewise, to you, faith is not an alien concept. You have faith. But your greatest need – and on some level you know this – is to transfer your faith to Christ Jesus. I am fully aware that I have no power to sway you. But the Holy Spirit of God does have the power. He not only reproves of sin, but also of righteousness, and of judgment (John 16:8). He can use Scripture to do so (Romans 10:14-17). Therefore, it is you, not me, who will get the real benefit if you open the Bible and read with an open mind and heart.
Professing Atheists Conveniently Pick and Choose Their Own “Morality”
March 2, 2009 at 10:16 am | Posted in ProfessingAtheists | 3 CommentsTags: 12 Century, 12th Century, atheism, atheism debate, Ecclesiastes 3, Iran, Judges 19, Leviticus 20, Matthew 12, morality, Numbers 15, professing atheists, Romans 1, stoning, Sunday shopping, Sweden
Professing Atheist: Judges 19 vv22-25 seems a little misogynistic and immoral.
Christian: Whether it SEEMS a little immoral or whether it SEEMS horrific, is irrelevant. Judges 19 is in the Bible not as an example of condoned behavior, but partly to show the atrocities that occur when men gauge right and wrong by what “seems” right or wrong, instead of what God says in His holy Word.
Professing Atheist: What about God’s own behaviour in Numbers 15 vv35-36, and pretty much everywhere in Leviticus 20? Do you think God’s Word, as revealed in these passages, is moral? I go shopping on Sundays. Would you stone me to death for that, as God unambiguously commands you to do? If not, why not?
Christian: The whole idea you have of fitting Scripture into your own “culture” or your own ideas of morality is partly where you are missing the point. The laws found in Leviticus and Numbers were God’s laws for the Jewish people. My opinion of them does not matter, except on a personal level, that I accept what the Bible says about them as absolute truth. New Testament believers are not commanded to stone people who shop on Sunday, or on the Jewish Sabbath for that matter. See Matthew 12:1-8.
You ask me, “Do I ‘think’ God’s laws are moral?” I don’t judge God’s laws. God judges all men. And He judges righteously.
Professing Atheist: Imagine you had been born in twelfth century Sweden. Or in Iran in, say, 1980. Just be honest: in those circumstances, which God do you think you would have ended up believing in? What do your answers tell you about your claim that your God, alone, is the right one?
Christian: God, before He created me, ordained in His perfect will that I would not be born in Iran or Sweden in a different time period. But if He had, I would be without excuse if I failed to acknowledge and worship Him. In the heart of every man, at every place and time, since the beginning of creation, God has placed the idea of eternity, and revelation of Himself. (Ecclesiastes 3:11; Romans 1:19-20)
The Deep End 